All posts by Darksusanoo
Pure assassins, you have Kha'Zix. If you wanna go into hybrid territory play Rengar or even Diana.
KHO and Will have been busy (natural, there is a life outside of LoL xD) but i think it isn't dead, only in cryostasis xD
So is the champion description project happening or not? At this point all i see is people tryna fight against a troll....which is ....fun....or something....
Yes...as you can see additional descirptions we're added for Garen, Morde and Skarner...it's moving a bit slower but we're still online...
Skarner, the Crystal Vanguard is a insectoid fighter-tank who skitters through the jungle looking for isolated targets to capture and destroy. Capable of capturing and manipulating certain areas deep in the jungle to his advantage, Skarner gains tremendeous sustain and dueling power which makes fighting the crystal scorpion in these battlefields a fool's errand. Aside from this, his innate defenses, speed boosts and ability to deliver a singled out target straight into his team mates hands makes Skarner a potent engage and chase tool for his team.
Mordekaiser, the Master of Metal is a sinister fighter-mage who thrives in inflicting pain to his opponents, using that as a catalyst to fuel his dark powers. Armed with potent damage spells, the more damage Mordekaiser inflicts onto his foes, the more difficult it becomes to kill this armored menace. Aside from this, Mordekaiser's most dangereous feature is his ability to capture the soul of an enemy champion, quickly creating a numbers dissadvantage for the enemy team. Be careful though, as Mordekaiser can capture more than your own soul and can even bring the noble soul of a massive dragon to obliterate an enemy team with potent area of effect damage.
Because Riot announced that they will do a(nother) Marksman items overhaul and it will include reworks for some of them. It could mean the reworks will be as substantial as the Juggernaut ones, or maybe they'll be just tweaks. I'm actually expecting them not to be that big - I don't think they'll change the champions' niche, but we can't be sure.
True...although from what i read from the Red Post Forums, GC's Ask.fm and a few more things, it could potentially involve a rework to crit mechanics and reworking Essence Reaver. But marksmen would remain the same....
I'd also suggest to avoid writing descriptions for champions that are listed for reworks (and about which we know nothing yet). Taric, Poppy, Shyvana, Olaf, maybe the Marksmen.
Sounds reasonable. Why the Marksmen though?
Personal clashes aside, i do think this project is a good step. Also to note that this project should be a slow burner with lots of adaptation, so alot can and will change from her to the finish.
I did and you continue to ignore it...i gave a full list of reasons backing Cho's description. Aside from that you have to factor Kog's much superior range and thus ability to kite melee characters (including Cho to hell and back) partially over-rides his lack of movespeed and escape tools plus he is still mentioned as an immobile character being on of his primary weaknesses. Cho on the other hand can't kite anyone, can't escape unless burning Flash and his engage tools are extremely telegraphed. If you ever read the Rioter forums and posts, the community and the Rioters agree that Cho is meant to be a slow moving behemoth, it's what he was designed as.
Twitch is mentioned as fragile not squishy. There's a difference. Not all squishy champions are inherently fragile. Why? Because they have some sort of ability that can at least partially detter or counter act a hostile engage. Self peel, instant burst, mobility spells, lockdown CC. Ahri has 3 of the 4 parameters here. Thus she has the ability to instantly evade and counter-engage on an attacking foe, making her much less fragile than Twitch. Twitch on the other hand, has none of the parameters noted.
In the hypercarry category he's the most AA dependant champion, with his only burst spell being severely AA reliant meaning that even with attack speed his burst is still delayed when compared to the burst of conventional casters. On the other hand you have Vayne, a less fragile character due to her self peel and mobility. And the fact that in the lategame she can kill any non-tank with single Silver Bolts proc. Draven with AD, crit and his Q can 2-shot most squishy characters. Jinx has more on-demand AOE and burst overall.
As for the rest you i won't go over it again. This is a matter of you having a subjective view of your own and ignoring alot of what's already been said here.
To add more controversy in the discussion, I added champion descriptions for Shaco and Vel'Koz, two of my mains, and I will continue to do so until instructed otherwise by an administrator or by popular consent.
You'd better add those to the comment section of blog about the descriptions linked in KHO's proclamation. Since it's his/her original project and to avoid accusations of vandalism and such, it's better to add those to the blog and let KHO also read them.
About the squishy thing, I edited my comment to make my point more clear about my issue with you telling me why certain champions' descriptions say they are squishy but others' do not.
You are being very subjective in my opinion here. You say 1.5 arm time is piss poor, or that Twitch's escape is weaker because it's not instant. I do not agree - Lucian and Graves, for example, have very, very short ranged dashes that are instant, but for just a very short arm time Twitch gets up to 8 seconds of invisibility and a movement speed buff. Perhaps you should change the wording of the description to "lack of instant escape tools." As for the issue I retain with him being marked as fragile and "weak and vulnerable early on," see my other comments and paragraph 1 of this comment.
Range has nothing to do with movement speed. Whether he is melee or not, he is faster than Kog'Maw but the descriptions make him sound much slower. Sion's only gapcloser is his ultimate, yet when I mentioned Graves having an ultimate of long range, it was counted by you as irrelevant due to it's long cooldown. Sion's ultimate overall has a much longer cooldown than Graves' (far higher at rank 1, a little higher at rank 2, a little lower at rank 3). Why do you get to decide when the cooldown of an ability is relevant to its, well, relevance, but I do not get to decide? If we aren't including CC as a gapcloser, many melee champions have no gapcloser outside of their ultimate, or none at all, yet they are generally not described as slow or cumbersome.
I wouldn't say that Vayne is not short-ranged, because the maximum range of all of her abilities and attacks are 550. However, Graves has an attack range of 525 but abilities with ranges of 950 and up to 1800. For example, you would describe Kog'Maw's range as extremely high, despite having an attack range of only 500, so clearly if basic attack range is the only short-ranged attack the champion has while the rest of their ranges are decently high, they are still high ranged.
Please do not make assumptions about the way I think or view things. If you'll notice, I've taken direct or nearly direct quotations of yours to describe what you have previously said to me (look at anything that I've said "you have said" or "you would say" about and I will show you where you specifically said that). It's very condescending to say "you view this one way, but it's actually another way," especially if that's not even the way I view it anyway.
I find it amusing that you complain about us making assumptions, when you are making your own.
Let's run some examples. I'm top lane Kennen, going for a TP/ult engage on the ADC on two games. In one we have a Twitch, in the other Lucian. Flash summoner spell aside and assuming equal player capacity. I can catch Twitch with my ultimate and burst him 100-0 after a certain point with a R-W even if he stealth's or not. On the other hand, Lucian will E away from my ult range, pop the W movespeed and kite me to hell and back. Graves is more than likely to W to blind my vision, dash out and burst me down. That's the difference. And that is not subjective. And i also find it amusing that you say for me view your previous comments about Twitch's frailty when i actually gave you several reasons (dependancy of longer trades, lack of instant escape tools, lack of peel, squishy deffensive stats) why this is and you apparently glossed over then.
Another one. I'm toplane Cho'Gath in one game and Maokai in the other and build Righteous Glory in both champions for the engage, pop it and go in. On Mao i can simply pop the W after getting in cast range an i just lockdown my opponent instantly. What do i do on Cho? I can silence my opponent, but that won't make him stop moving. I can knock him up, but the delay makes it so i can literally avoid it by walking to the side. That's the difference. Most pure tank based characters have some form of reliable lockdown or way to close the gap or both. Cho does not. And being a gigantic melee tank with telegraphed spells, no gapclosers and having to get in melee range to reliably kill you is being "slow and cumbersome". Hell i think a Rioter even described him in the Red Post forums of SS@20 in similar terms when talking about rework possibilities and his gameplay style.
And you keep tunneling on MS, when in reality base MS is worth jack on alot of characters. You could decrease Vi's MS to 325 (actually they shaved 5 MS from her a few months ago), the lowest in the game and she'll still be one of the most mobile junglers due to her double dash. Same thing with Zed as an assassin midlaner. Trist has 325 movespeed and she is one of the most mobile ADC due to her 900 range dash. Kalista is the mobility based ADCand she has 325 movespeed. Xerath has 340 movespeed, which is above average and he's still one of the easiest mages to kill when you close the gap on him, compared to Ziggs who shares several kit similarities and 325 movespeed but can escape and peel away with a W.
Also in terms of cooldown ultimates, you don't take into account build paths. Sion will build 40% CDR in almost all occassions, lowering his ult CD to 35'ish seconds, meaning if planned correctly he can use it twice in a teamfight. Graves on the other hand has a higher rank 3 CD and builds almost no CDR outside of an occassional Ghostblade, which means his ult CD will be in the ball park of 75-70 seconds, twich of Sion's own. Outside of that Graves has one offensive spell which is his Q, that requires close range contact to deal full burst damage and a deffensive steroid that pops in combat. Did you know that Graves more recent number tweaks was to his Q, where Riot made it so it could deal more damage from upclose, but less from a poke based perspective since that was the intended playstyle they layed out for Graves.
I'm not really seeing much sense in the points you're making. You repeat that Cho is slow and cumbersome, but you don't really mention anything other than that he has relatively high movement speed and he's dangerous if he catches up with you. He has no mobility abilities, but that doesn't mean every champion without mobility abilities is slow and cumbersome - would Zyra be described that way?
Graves outranges 5 marksmen, not 2. The fact that you think it's stupid to count Kog'Maw's range as what it actually is is your opinion. He's also on par with 2 others, or 3 if you count Azir (which is up to you - he essentially is just an AP version of a marksman, and that is his secondary role). The next 8 marksmen who outrange him do so only by 25 units, the difference is barely noticeable until you get to Varus, Ashe, Caitlyn, and Tristana at later levels.
You may be right that people don't play Lee for his ability to reveal stealthed champions (11 can stealth, double the number you said), but it's possibly the only thing he can do better than anyone else. If a newer player wanted to play a champion with good mobility, then these bios should point out the mobility of the champions with the most of it, not champions like Lee Sin who only have two targeted dashes, one of which requires a skillshot to be landed first and the other is only a dash when used on a different ally. I'd say even Katarina has more mobility with an extremely low-cooldown and resetting decent movement speed boost and a fairly low cooldown targeted blink which can also reset. I'll just say this again - if a champion's noted strength is something that so many other champions are better at, why is the the noted strength? Why not the thing that they are the best at out of every other champion in the game?
Yet again you say Twitch has no escapes. Aside from the longest-duration invisibility in the game which also provides a movement speed boost which can be activated in 1.5 seconds, or in other words is basically uninterruptable as long as Twitch has an ounce of foresight? May I also note that on one occasion I was told that squishy champions are squishy, even if they are less squishy than other squishies, and that's why it is mentioned. Yet now I'm being told that squishiness is not being mentioned because every other champion of the same role is squishy as well.
Essentially, I'm being told that a squishy who isn't very squishy is still mentioned as squishy because their group is squishy, but a squishy who is as squishy as the other members of their group is not being mentioned as squishy because everyone else is squishy too. You can't tell me one thing in response to something I said, then tell me something that disagrees with your first reply in response to something else I say.
If a champion can be blown up by a full assassin/mage combo, they are squishies by nature or are squishy because their deffensive steroids/items still aren't online.
And a 1.5 second arm on anything is piss poor to use in most situations especially escape situations when you are always certain to atleast take an instance of damage thus pushing the arm time to a full 6 seconds. Using it on trades is suicide, teamfights aswell. Escapes are escapes regardless of the situation. Champions like Lucian, Graves, Kassadin, Leblanc even Kennen can instantly evade or reposition on the drop. You mention foresight...no matter how much you ward, or evade skillshots or anything, you will in a game get caught in a flank or eat a hook/bind and as Twitch you have no way of escaping that unlike any of the champions above mentioned. Twitch's lack of instant escapes, lack of innate peel and his reliance on longer trades and skirmishes alongside his squishy base stats makes him more vulnerable to burst/all ins, thus making him a particullarly fragile target. In that paradign, he's very similar to Kog'Maw.
You considering Katarina more mobile than Lee is...simply absurd. Kata doesn't half of Lee's chase or evasion potential or ability to enter the middle of the enemy team and engage on a priority target. And just because you have champions that excel at the same function over others doesn't take away from what their core strength is, it simply means they are outclassed in it. Viktor outclassing Anivia as a control mage, doesn't take away the fact that Anivia is a control mage and that is what she brings as her major strength.
Cho is a melee tank and you're comparing him to a CC long range mage? Really? High base MS means jack when you're a melee champion with mostly telegraphed spells with long cast times and your major burst has to be dealt at melee range aswell. Compare that to a Nautilus/Maokai/Sion/Sejuani/Skarner/Rek'Sai, they can close the gap on you in some way. You ask the parameters of considering Cho "slow and cumbersome"? Melee range, no gapclosers, no movement steroids, long cast time spells and melee range ultimate.
You mentioned Graves AA range? And you're point...is? Would you say that Vayne isn't a short range ADC despite having a base 550 AA range? You look at things as separate elements, while these descriptions are looking at the whole of a champion's playstyle.
Originally I was all for this as a description of the fantasy of playing a champion which would be helpful to a new player, and I suppose that part hasn't changed much. However, I'm starting to see some parts of the description that just don't make sense, so I fail to see how that's at all helpful for the newer players who would be using it. For example, Twitch is described as fragile with a lack of escape tools, and noted is his vulnerability early on. However, as far as defensive stats go, early on he's ahead of more marksmen than he's behind in both armor and health, and doesn't fall behind until later, at which point he's only ahead of Caitlyn and Ashe. He also has the longest lasting invisibility outside of permanent ones which have their own drawbacks (Teemo, Eve), surpassing even the duration of all invisibility-granting ultimates, and he gets bonus movement speed for that duration. I don't see how he's fragile early on or has a lack of escape tools.
Lee Sin can "pin down enemies with crowd control," but really I don't see how. He has one form of hard-CC and it's a knockback whichs lasts only 1 second. If his strength is to pin down enemies with CC, what's Morgana's strength, who can lock down an enemy in place for 4.5 seconds? Leona's, who can chain CC to keep an enemy from moving for about 3 seconds? If his strength is outmaneveuring his foes, what's LeBlanc's strength, who has 2 dashes and 2 blinks? Ekko's, who has a skillshot dash, a targeted blink, and an instant potentially global auto-targeted blink?
Cho'Gath is "slow and cumbersome," despite being ahead of most every other champion in terms of movement speed. Graves gets "up close and personal with his enemies," despite having projectile ability ranges of near one thousand and an ultimate with almost two thousand range (not the largest, but definitely not up close and personal), as well as being ahead of multiple other marksmen in basic attack range and only having slightly under the norm, among other marksmen.
Twitch is noted as fragile and with a lack of escape tools because of the massive delay of his stealth mechanics if he takes damage, meaning he can't use it effectively in a trade or an enemy gank unless he has foreknowledge of it. Add to that his reliance on basic attacking to deal the majority of his damage, he has to opperate in extended trades, while most marksmen outdamage/zero him out by means of sheer burst damage in lesser windows of time early on. Having good stats in the squishy category still means you are a squishy.
While the Lee's kit is very generalistic, which makes it difficult to pin down a proper description, but locking down an opponent and outmaneuvering then isn't an inaccurate description, since his major lategame contribution is based around Insec-style kicks on enemies into your own team, which requires you to outmaneuver your foes. You mention Leblanc and Ekko, what do they have to do with this? Just because they have potent mobility doesn't invalidate Lee's major strengths in any way. You can make a similar comparison to say...Kassadin and Leblanc. Both of their strengths double down around heavy mobility, but it's still their major strength. Just because you have champions with similar styles, doesn't take away that, that's their major contribution to a game.
Cho may have good movement speed, but he has no movespeed steroid, no dash, targeted or otherwise, meaning he has to rely in his very telegraphed CC to catch you and walk into melee range to burst you down, hence the "slow and cumbersome" definition. Graves has a resistance steroid for in battle occassions, a dash that gives attack speed and his primary nuke relies on you having to move close to his all 3 bullets. "Getting up close and personal" is pretty much what he's about.
Kind-Hearted-One wrote:
How is saying that Ahri is a mage that uses mobility to juke people and draw people out to kill them, that Kog'Maw is an extremely fragile glass cannon that rapes whole teams if properly protected or that Graves is a tough marksman that wants to get in your face and burst you down "subjective"?
I think that just about summarizes why this is a bad idea.
Actually it doesn't summarize anything, other than nit-picking and if you read the actual descriptions already written, the language is actually very straight-forward and contained. Besides Kog does destroy teams by himself if kept alive. He's the only champion in the game where you can build an entire support comp around him being the only damage threat so him being capable of destroying an entire enemy team by himself is not subjective, it's his gameplay fantasy.
The opposition to the project has valid points. Explaining transitions in gameplay is subject to the itemization, masteries, and runes greatly affecting the outcome. Unless there is a way we can explain the powercurve based on the champions' abilities, I believe powercurves should be ommited as they are an obstacle to creating a proper summary.
Although, in terms of comparing the summaries to /Background, the summaries are vastly more gameplay orientated than they are about lore; so these summaries is essentially a condensed version of the Strategy section.
In fringe cases, yes explaining powercurves is more complicated, but most of the descriptions focus on the core/meta gameplay that's pretty much the one Riot enforces. Cases like say Top Morgana, assassin Lissandra, AP Runeglaive Ezreal, etc are rare and have been weeded out through the patches.
In a way you can say that the descriptions "toe the company line" since they focus on the core gameplay that Riot allows to exist. Certain champions will be more difficult to explain such as Taric and Yorick due to their state of disrepair or Irelia due to her extremely generalist kit. With that being said, with the amount of reworks, champions releases and overall work that Riot has been putting out to individualize the champion roster, i'm positive those more difficult issues can be addressed over time.
It is possible to build literally anyone as a full tank or an AD carry, but that does not mean that is the primary role of a champion, nor does it necessarily reflect their main contribution. In fact, listing the possibility of that happening would be misinformation, even if it would be technically accurate. Again, you could always go glass cannon Lee Sin or AD marksman Ahri, and those builds may even occasionally see larger play, but that doesn't reflect what that champion's kit or theme does.
In fact several of those fringe cases have been regularly weeded out by Riot, especially in this season. AP Runeglaive Ezreal, AP Runeglaive assassin Eve, Tank Ekko, Cinderhulk toplaners and those are just the ones off the top of my head. Riot did so because said fringe cases we're muddling the original identity/contribution of a champion they had envisioned.
His attitude is of my concern since this a project i'm deeply involved and is being looked down upon for no constructive end. Freedom of expression is not an excuse to degrade other editors for proposing a project that you may dissagree with.
I wasn't talking about freedom of expression, as you can't stop him (or me) from looking down upon your project no matter how much you'd want to.
You're right, his attitude should be of your concern, that's if you're going to put it in balance when deciding if you're going on with the project or not. And if you're going to do that, you can't dismiss it as being heavily flawed. That would just prove that you don't really care about his attitude and that you're a hypocrite. But this is just theorycrafting, isn't it?
On-topic, I must agree with KHO, these bios seems pretty objective, like ability details and unlike most of the strategy pages.
Sadly no i can't stop people from being arrogant for the sake of being arrogant, that doesn't mean that it's right or that i can't call people out on it.
Actually pointing out a disruptive/flawed attitude or argument for what it is, isn't dismissing it, it's pointing out that it's not a positive contribution and can cause further issues with project itself. There are 100 different ways that you/whoever else can express different or contrary viewpoints (like Feirund, Shaw even DamonDraven who is in favour of the project did, with me/most of the people here actually agreeing with some of the brought up points and creating an actual debate over then with no friction between the users).
You and GutsyTick on the other opted to assume a gratuitous and antagonizing atittude from comment one. Now that's your choice. I sadly cannot stop you from assuming such a stance, not can you stop me or anyone else from calling you out on it. You get the same as you give and if you can't take it, don't dish it. But i've had enough of this. Think as you will. I will continue to support KHO and this project and that's it.
Not really...i atleast don't think your argument is wrong and opposition is always a key part of a discussion. Nor am i a judge. What i did was point out the heavy flaws in another user's overall atittude towards this subject and for that i'm not ashamed of anything i said here.
His attitude is no concern of yours, this other user should be able to express himself without you saying his contribution is heavily flawed.
His attitude is of my concern since this a project i'm deeply involved and is being looked down upon for no constructive end. Freedom of expression is not an excuse to degrade other editors for proposing a project that you may dissagree with.
I do not feel that champions with particularly divergent build paths can always be sufficiently described in a single homogeneous paragraph. Tank Cho'Gath doesn't play anything like AP Cho'Gath; Ekko is in the same boat. There's Critplank, APlank and Tankplank. Lulu has her Machine Gun, AP and support playstyles to consider. Bruiser Nidalee focuses on close-range brawling over AP Nidalee's javelin poke. And these are just the off-the-wall examples as opposed to more unconventional off-builds like ADC Ahri. It seems idealistic to say you can accommodate any and all situations without being vague.
These flavour texts are mostly focused on the general feel of a champion not so much the painful specifics. Even most champions with diverging buildpaths will mostly play the same. AP and AD Ezreal both focus on poke, kite and global snipes. AD and AP Kog'Maw is still long range artilery damage. Lulu support and AP is still focused on early game harass and then her utility. Even Cho as a tank and AP is all about knocking people up, eating then and the growing into a kaiju. Even ADC Ahri is still all about dashing around and charming foes.
You're welcome to prove me wrong, of course, and I'm not strictly giving this a thumbs down, but it just feels to me like a bandaid fix to the problem that's more caused by an outdated page layout. :V
I actually completely agree with this. The page layouts have quite a few isssues, but that should be a point made (and very much made) in another forum page to try and get a new layout and update them.
But at the same time i feel that wouldn't interfere with the goal of this project, which is to provide a short, concise and yes somewhat flavourful description of a champion to be read alongside the raw details of their abilities and give users a more comprehensive understanding of what makes X champion tick.
I'll now wait for Willbachbakal and Darksusanoo to accuse me of wanting to start a flame war or to dismiss my argument as flawed and with no value, because they're the judges here and we shall no oppose them. Really guys? You should be ashamed.
Not really...i atleast don't think your argument is wrong and opposition is always a key part of a discussion. Nor am i a judge. What i did was point out the heavy flaws in another user's overall atittude towards this subject and for that i'm not ashamed of anything i said here.
EDIT: @Darksusanoo I don't have a proposal for what may be able to sufficiently fill the void, nor do I intend on coming up with one. This is your project, and I've just stated what I think of it. Do not push the work in which you have so willingly taken up onto me.
It's actually KHO's project and one i've been very much enjoying so far in assisting with. Nor was it my intent to involve you since you are so against it. I was pointing out the simple facts that both your arguments are very flawed and that you simply took to pointing out problems without proposing a solution or even acknowledging the issue to which the project tries to address in the first place and in a very bad way. But you know what, Will is right. Further back-and-forth will simply ignite a flame war and i don't wish that to happen.