Forum:Ability Details, something needs to be done

Some of you may remember that I brought this up on the old(new) forums and it sort of just died after a bit of discussion. I am bringing this up again and this will be the last time. Something must be done regarding ability details pages and the most logical thing is to merge them with the main champion pages.

Here are 2 examples of my proposed idea when it comes to merging:
Lux (has work in progress ability videos implemented)
Morgana
 NeonSpotlight  Talk  Contribs  01:49, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

• I remember way back when the whole point of the Ability Details project was to provide more information on abilities and provide a small visual clip of the ability. However, Sam, who started the project no longer held a desire for it. I agree with Neon in that they should be merged with the champion's main pages. "Ability details" is exactly what they are, details, which can be easily shown with Neon's examples. I support Neon's proposal.  Technology Wizard  Talk  Contribs  05:16, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
• I'm pretty sure everyone had been on board with merging the ability details page with the main champion page. The only issues there was I recall was how the exact template would work, but seeing Neon's super awesome formatting of it which doesn't take much additional space when not needed, while still seemingly looks elegant enough, I would support it. ClariS (talk) 05:29, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
• This seems like a much cleaner and efficient way to merge what are essentially two facets of the same page, especially since most of the info on the Ability Details article is redundant for every champion. I support this fully. Also, you misspelled Lux's Binding Light's targeting type as "Collusion linear skillshot". :P --Willbachbakal (talk) 06:42, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Fixed the collusion, thank you for pointing it out :3  NeonSpotlight  Talk  Contribs  02:52, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

• FWIW, I think the way you combined them looks great! Only suggestion would be for pages that have videos, maybe the video should be scaled so that the right edge lines up with the text margins. Good job! --Remmii (talk) 16:10, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

I need to get Bryght or Proton or someone smart to fix it for me since I have no idea what I'm doing.  NeonSpotlight  Talk  Contribs  16:13, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

Can be done. --BryghtShadow 14:52, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

• Ah, I just got a question. These details, will they have their own page to store the information for are we going to stuff them in with the main champion pages? ClariS (talk) 20:48, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

That's up for discussion, how to implement them.  NeonSpotlight  Talk  Contribs  21:02, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

Maybe we can benefit from what cv and Data Sona have achieved, while we wait for "Semantic MediaWiki" to be installed. See also: Forum:Semantic_MediaWiki, http://semantic-mediawiki.org/. --BryghtShadow 14:52, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

• Just to get the ball rolling, by copypasting borrowing generous amounts of your template and melding it with a generic ability template I created the Abinfo template, which currently has one single field, named "description", which can hold the ability's details. I incorporated this template into two custom champion articles, inside which the template seems to work.
  • I haven't tested videos yet on the template, and so do not know how they'll work.
  • The format is similar to yours, though I incorporated item/ability icons and also added a line for Liandry's Torment, which also has unique interaction with certain abilities.
  • Currently, I have to manually add line breaks in long bits of text to prevent them from being swallowed up by the edge of the ability box. I'd love advice on how to make this automatic or, better yet, a direct tweak.
    • Manual line breaks merely for presentational purposes are bad, I tell ya! We can fix this via CSS. --BryghtShadow 14:52, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
    • Fixed! It's all pretty now (Well, mostly).
  • Every individual additional info section has its description text written within the article itself, which may make editing it a bit cumbersome. Perhaps it would be better to move each champion's ability details to its stats page and have the template point to the relevant section.
  • Alternatively (or in addition to the above), considering the format is very standardized, the template could benefit from more intelligent fields, such as a dedicated field for targeting type, interaction with item X, and so on.
  • Currently, I'm adding the additional info section at the end of the description field of each ability box. Ideally, if this becomes mainstream the ability box template could be modified to hold an additional info field (or multiple fields detailing different bits of additional info). --Willbachbakal (talk) 21:40, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
• Did everyone suddenly lose enthusiasm in this? I may write a blog post later to gather attention to this forum section, but for now here's the update on the template I was working with: I added in a number of additional fields (targeting type, interaction with X object or ability...) to standardize its format and, thanks to Bryghtshadow, they also disappear when not called upon. Aside from an image/video file field I'm trying to figure out, my template is capable of summarizing any ability's details and encapsulating it under the ability's description on the Champion page. A few questions:
  • First off, how is my template? I haven't gotten any feedback so far, and so I'm pretty much working blind here. Is it good enough for the mainspace? What could be improved? Is the overall format good, or should it be changed?
  • A subset of the above question, but how to add in an optional field for image/video files? As in, I want to add in a field where you type in the name of a file, and it'd embed it automatically within the section.
  • Are there any plans to change Ability Details on the mainspace? I haven't heard much on the subject at all, especially not from the admins.
  • If we were to hypothetically implement this template, would it be better to add the information directly to the main champion article (at the risk of clogging it), or to add the information to the Champion Data page (which would make it difficult for new users to edit) and link from there? I'm personally more in favor of the latter, but that would also imply editing the current Ability Info template to add a new field for the ability detail minisection. --Willbachbakal (talk) 16:41, July 12, 2013 (UTC)
    • Personally I think the information should be added directly to the main champion article. Besides the concern that new users would have a harder time editing if it was in Champion Data, it would be easier to work with because it's more similar to current way of having the Ability Details page under a champion's directory "/Champion/Ability_Details". It would sort of keep the ability detail info "closer" to the main article, if that makes sense.

Clogging shouldn't be a major issue as long as good formatting is kept when pages are edited. Hypercarrot (talk) 19:01, July 13, 2013 (UTC)

User:NeonSpotlight/Ability_Details/Soraka
This is the template Willbachbaka made using Soraka as an example. You can press the edit button and look at the source to see what the source looks like when put into the page as opposed to the two examples I provided originally which use separate pages to hold the ability details.
Personally, I don't think it's very clogged/bloated, as long as we format it properly (including adding the space between abilities that I added) and it solves the issue we have with implementing it.
I am beyond awful when it comes to coding things so when it comes to implementing a file option I have no answers but it would greatly help with implementing the ability videos that I have on the Lux page.  NeonSpotlight  Talk  Contribs  20:39, July 14, 2013 (UTC)

1. Implement pl0x. — TehAnonymous <3 01:46, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
2. Your example shows that the ability info conflicts with the "description2" field, in this case removing the information for the second part of Soraka's Infuse. Shouldn't a "description_ability_details" field be added to Template:Ability_info to accomodate this? Hypercarrot (talk) 17:25, July 15, 2013 (UTC)

User:Emptylord brought up an interesting idea of implementing a trial version of the ability details integration on Lucian's page. I have gone ahead, using Willbackbaka's template, updated Lucian's page using the same method I used with Soraka (all the information on the champ page). Hopefully we will receive positive feedback on the matter and garner a little more attention to the project.  NeonSpotlight  Talk  Contribs  04:16, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

IDK if I did this wrong, I'm a noob at talk pages. I'm gonna say I don't like the idea.

The ability details page is there for a reason. You want the main page to be succinct and to the point, simply illustrating the champ's characteristics. Then, for more depth, you can go to the AD page.

Putting ADs onto the main page just ruins it, as well as making it ugly (so much for "sleek"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by DingyuChowMein (talk • contribs)

One of the issues with having separate pages is that editors don't always keep the information in sync, since many just edit the main page and forget the details page. This collapsing design merges the two but keeps the main page looking mostly the same, still succinct. In-depth info is accessed by clicking to expand it. Hypercarrot (talk) 02:10, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what overall implementation status is on this, but it seems that not only have many of the Ability Details pages been removed at this point, but they haven't been merged with main-pages. On randomly looking at five or six champion pages(Sona, Kennen, Morgana, Alistar, Katarina) not only is the Ability Details section removed, but there is no drop-down "show details" option under any of the abilities. Oddly Akali has it, but only for her passive not for anything else. Just noticed this in looking for some semi-important build info, and as far as I can tell, there's no way of checking details on a bunch of the champions anymore for key item-interactions and such. What's up with this? Puzzleclocks (talk) 18:28, September 28, 2013 (UTC)

Design Feedback

I personally think the lifesteal, rylais, spellvamp, etc, needs to look less... ugly. Perhaps in a table, so the title column (eg spellvamp) and info column (eg one-third) are flush with each other. I don't think I've achieved it, but something more in this direction: (EDIT: Template removed). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emptylord (talk • contribs)

^That does look good. Though I think if the targeting stuff was also in a table, it would look better, sort of like this rough mock-up:

Targeting type: Target enemy unit	Affected area: Linear area of effect
Reduced (33%)	Reduced (15%)
Will pop and block the damage but does not prevent the laser being fired.
The target can dodge the damage during the 0.4 second delay.

I added the "affected area" field for clarity, especially in special cases like Lucian's Q, which is a single target ability but damages in an area of effect. Also added more to the targeting field, since some spells can only target champions and some can target any unit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hypercarrot (talk • contribs)

Okay, give me a second... (EDIT: Deleted template1 so I could reuse it, rather than creating another. Emptylord (talk) 13:18, July 19, 2013 (UTC))

How's that? This is what I'm trying to achieve, although I'm not the best at HTML/using divs. Emptylord (talk) 19:52, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

Awwwee 0.0, pretty ClariS (talk) 23:09, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

Glad to see my idea being put to good use. I also think there could be an indicator as to whether something procs on-hit or on-ability effects. This would also help clarify the details of multi-component abilities, like Fizz's Q or any of Udyr's abilities since those would need both the Lifesteal and Icy icons as well as the Spell vamp and Rylais. Or would that just be for the notes at the end of the ability details section? --Hypercarrot (talk) 02:05, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

The template can already support both types:

? {{{name}}} Targeting Affects Enemy unit {{{affects}}} {{{description}}}

Notes: There are two damage components, one physical and one magical.

I personally prefer how I originally had it with an "overview" bit at the top, rather than "targeting and area". For Lucian, it would say "Piercing Light is an instant skill shot that is fired in the direction of a target enemy unit." Fizz's could say "Urchin Strike is a targeted dash with two damaging components, one physical that applies on-hit effects and one magical that applies spell effects."

I'm going to work on improving the spell vamp, rylais, life steal and icy section to better clarify whether something applies on-hit effects or spell effects. Emptylord (talk) 02:31, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, here's how it looks at the moment: Emptylord (talk) 02:55, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

User:Emptylord/Template:Ability frame

Here's all the possible pieces of information: Emptylord (talk) 03:00, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

• Hide
• Details

Info

Targeting input	Targeting information

Additional information

EDIT: Added a list and "Additional information:" to the additional information.

This looks fantastic! However, you should also find a way to add info for Liandry's Torment, which is a popular item whose effects vary wildly depending on the spell cast. --Willbachbakal (talk) 07:51, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

Liandry's Torment only special condition is double damage on impaired targets. Given that all abilities can impair movement with Rylai's, there is no consistent list. Emptylord (talk) 12:00, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

That is true, but the same can be said of Black Shield, which is nonetheless consistently included in Ability Details pages and for good reason. Liandry's synergy with Rylai's does not prevent it from working differently with certain abilities' base effects (the damage it deals varies depending on the ability's CC duration, so it's not a straight 6%/12% current health over time dichotomy). I'm actually more curious as to why you added notifications for life steal and Tiamat, both of which are simple on-hit effects. The format you posted immediately below is my personal favorite, though you could perhaps improve it by simply consistently listing percentages for spell vamp, Rylai's and Frozen Mallet instead of indicating whether or not the effect is reduced. Imo, you can also do away with life steal and Tiamat, as those can be listed under on-hit effects (they never vary). --Willbachbakal (talk) 22:45, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

Black Shield seems to confuse people with its interaction with non-CC debuffs, and so that is the reason it's always listed. People would assume if the damage is blocked, nothing else is applied (like a spell shield) - so it's nice to clarify. As for Icy, there is no consistent slow values as it varies between items. The reason I mentioned Tiamat was simply because I was in a mind-set of listing the melee-only on-hit effects. I wasn't sure if simply saying "Applies melee on-hit effects" would be sufficient for the players who actually want the information.Emptylord (talk) 01:49, July 20, 2013 (UTC)

Should I change the "applies on-hit" and "applies spell effects" to clarify if an ability is single target or area of effect, for the purposes of other effects like Furor and Muramana? In theory, I could just have "|spelleffects=aoe" and it automatically print the rest (at the moment you have to input spelleffects=yes/no, spellvamp and rylais).Emptylord (talk) 12:04, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

User:Emptylord/Template:Ability frame

Should I clarify "melee on-hit effects" and "ranged on-hit effects" in the top line, or is it enough that it says "Melee slow" and "Ranged slow" for Icy? Emptylord (talk) 12:24, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I've decided to list spell effects and on-hit effects sequantially, rather than left-right: User:Emptylord/Template:Ability frame

I've also added the option to "hide" spell effects and on-hit effects, for skills like Relentless Pursuit (it looked lonely with only one field, so I added a video to pad it a bit): Emptylord (talk) 13:44, July 19, 2013 (UTC) User:Emptylord/Template:Ability frame

I think the initial "overview" design is alright, but wouldn't having a "targeting" field and "area" field make it more simple to use, since you could just enter a few words into the appropriate field instead of needing a sentence to describe it. Having information specifically marked as "target" and as "area" would also convey it more explicitly than a sentence, imo. --Hypercarrot (talk) 16:05, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

I think the problem with having fields for that information is that almost every champion has a unique response. I personally think a generic "casting style" overview is cleaner and reads better, but I'm not overly fussed. Emptylord (talk) 16:53, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

I been playing around your design and I have a few issues. The first one is Additional Information [hide] button is located. The level up section actually kind of overlaps it or, is way too close to and it looks kind of bad. It would nice if you could lower it by a bit.

Another one is about the on-hit effects. Is it possible to make it only right apply oh-hit effects, and/or actually write something that gives a space after the period.

ClariS (talk) 03:58, July 22, 2013 (UTC)

I've fixed the issue with overlap, I hope. Or, at least, the capacity to fix it is there - the padding amount might need tweaking. I don't understand what you mean by the second point. At the moment, no, you cannot simply write "Applies on-hit effects", you must also provide additional information - but given you should specify things like blind, dodge, etc, I didn't think there would be any case where you don't need to give extra information. I could add a catch, such as "yes", where it will only write "Applies on-hit effects".

Alternatively, for both spell effects and on-hit effects, I could remove all automatically generated text. Thus, you could simply write "Applies on-hit effects.". Emptylord (talk) 11:27, July 22, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I would think it would be great if you could just hide the on-hit effect section if there is no on-hit effect. Most abilities don't apply on-hit effect so there is no need to require that space. Leaving it blank will default to "Applies on-hit effect".

But about the last bit I was saying, what every I write, there is no space from the default text to what I write. For example, I write "hello" in the space provided and it shows as "Applies on-hit effects.hello". I want a space after the period if possible.

ClariS (talk) 23:43, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Making the Case for Liandry's Torment

I mentioned this somewhere above, but to reiterate I really think Liandry's Torment needs to be added in the documentation for ability details under spell effects. The argument made above was that Liandry's damage could be modified by Rylai's Crystal Scepter, but I disagree, and here's why:

• Liandry's interaction with Rylai's is irrelevant since:
  • Other documented effects, such as Black Shield and spell vamp, also have their interactions modified by items (in fact, Liandry's affects the health gained by spell vamp).
  • Rylai's is not an automatic follow-up to Liandry's or vice versa.
• Liandry's Torment should be documented because:
  • It's a variable spell effect, just like Rylai's or spell vamp.
  • Its damage actually varies wildly based on multiple factors within the ability itself: whether or not the spell deals damage over time, whether or not it applies CC and for how long it does so. There are many spells that require Liandry's damage to be calculated specifically for them, and not documenting this feels wrong. Here are a few examples:
    • Malefic Visions deals 14% of the target's current health in damage with Liandry's because the damage effect ticks for the full 4 seconds plus an extra 3, and his Nether Grasp deals 16%, double damage for the first 2.5 seconds and then another extra 3. Null Zone can deal up to 16% as well, again because it's a DoT.
    • Lucent Singularity may slow the target, but only deals normal (6% of current health) damage by itself. Light Binding, on the other hand, deals 8% of the target's current health instead of 6%, because the damage is doubled for the first second due to the snare.
    • Morgana's Soul Shackles can deal up to 21% of a target's current health, due to the initial damage and 3-second slow followed by a second damage application and a 1.5-second stun. Dark Binding's damage varies per rank, as the snare duration increases (so it deals 8% / 9% / 10% / 11% / 12% of the target's current health).

Those are just a few examples (practically every champion has at least one ability that requires its own calculation for Liandry's Torment), but hopefully it shows that Liandry's actual effects vary significantly per champion and ability, and so the item requires its own documentation under spell effects. If it's too much trouble, I can do the calculation and documentation myself for every section. --Willbachbakal (talk) 20:47, August 6, 2013 (UTC)

Proposal : Ability Tags

Well, this might be a good idea. It is still a work in progress but it is functional. There is still some room to tweak this if it's too big/small/wrong color. I've been working on it for most of this week. It's been a lot of work, so please be nice. User:IONDragonX/sandbox2 (talk) 05:39, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

I really like the idea and the functionality, but the aesthetic isn't quite in line with what other guys have done with the additional info box (colors mainly, though the icon border is also quite prominent). That said, my opinion defers to that of others who are more involved with this project :3 — TehAnonymous <3 05:54, August 21, 2013 (UTC)