• At the present situation champion information/data is stored behind two to four hops away from the actual article. Editing such articles are tiresome as klicking the edit button does not take you to edit the section, instead you are taken into a wild goose hunt inside of multiple templates thats preview does not even give the preview as it is using some other template thus using the unedited data.

    The idea of using separate page for different sections is good as they can then also be also categorized but if it is done through templates then they cannot be edited directly nor used for anything else. Sure it is nice way to bloat a wiki but it has little practical usage except when wanting to show off mad template skillz. The same data separation could be done using the more common (best practice) method found in e.g. wikipedia where transclusion is used.

    Bringing the data to the actual page would make editing better (threshold, clarity, impact, consistency) and using templates only for displaying it nicely would also make the editors and readers life easier (style changes). Now they are one and the same.

    Just making a remark after the deep templating style change was made, all the extra info in the wiki (the salt that makes this different from other wikis) is dragging two to seven patches behind. Usually outdated and when wiki has outdated info, it starts to lose its interest except for nice pictures.

      Loading editor
    • Champion's abilities have been moved to templates so that the data inside the template could be used to automatically display an ability information (no need to update the ability on every page not and on every page that uses that champion's ability).

      I was currently working on a template that was supposed to do the above.

      Initial Talk : Thread:1305500

        Loading editor
    • Well, I won't argue that reaching the template to edit it isn't easy or fast unless you have the url saved. I don't mind the data being stored in a template page, but it would probably be cool if people wanting to edit could access it more easily.

        Loading editor
    • Multiple options here:

      1. Add an edit button to each Ability infobox.
      2. Roll back the decision to use individual templates per ability, and just invoke the ability information directly from the article when it's needed by other pages. This was discussed, and was almost solved before the decision to use templates was pushed.
        Loading editor
    • Teh's Thoughts

      Embedding data and details behind multiple layers of templates functionally advantageous, but the mechanics/hierarchy/everything should be thoroughly and clearly documented.

      What I think we should have
      • A master guide for template structures (for multiple types of pages), based on the various guides to wiki editing produced by Neon & Tylobic, similar to User:TehAnonymous/Sandbox/4 (describes champion & item pages, outdated) and User:TehAnonymous/Sandbox/10 (homepage, recently updated)
      • Each template should be briefly explained in the master guide and then thoroughly explained in their /doc.
      Example of poor transparency and documentation

      Editing the section Armor#Items_2, I see in source mode:

      {{stat table header|item}}
      {{Do for every item|item table row|p1n=2|p1v=armor}}
      {{stat table footer}}

      From this, I don't understand what's going on or how a large table was generated from three short lines. Return to the page, check that yes it works, a newbie would throw their hands up and stop there. A much more experienced wiki editor would recognize them as templates, and maybe check the templates to understand what's happening.

      Documentation level is as follows

        Loading editor
    • The benefit of being able to pull data from one source to display it on multiple pages outweights the few extra clicks needed to edit it.  

      The documentation definitely needs some love.  

        Loading editor
    • @SailorMint. It's more than a few clicks. It's also the knowledge of where to edit, which is less than intuitive.

        Loading editor
    • Is there not a way to (re)direct edit access so you can easily get to edit the template?

        Loading editor
    • @Nazareadain, the easiest, quickest solution to this would be to add a big "edit" button at the begining of the champion's ability page, linking to the template Template:Data Champion/Ability. Problem is, it would require 5 buttons (one for Passive, Q, W, E, and R). Don't really know how I feel about this.

        Loading editor
    • I agree with this idea, but removing the template would also remove the item and champion previews, wouldn't it ?

      I mean the preview you have when you hover over the links and you can see the splash art, the base stats and the skill icons (in case of a champion)

      I think the preview should be kept.

        Loading editor
    • I have to agree that it is also hard to keep other wikis up to date, using the english wikia sites. You have to follow so many different pages to receive the change notifications :(

        Loading editor
    • There's another advantage of the current system - it is harder to vandalize important information as the potential vandal will get confused/bored trying to find it.

      However, I do agree that we need improved documentation.

        Loading editor
    • @tybolic - can't you have a single edit button but have the edit screen pull the edit information from the template so all of them are editable at once? Might be a little heavy, but... convenient, and still pretty.

        Loading editor
    • Tylobic wrote:

      Champion's abilities have been moved to templates so that the data inside the template could be used to automatically display an ability information (no need to update the ability on every page not and on every page that uses that champion's ability).

      TehAnonymous wrote:

      Embedding data and details behind multiple layers of templates functionally advantageous, but the mechanics/hierarchy/everything should be thoroughly and clearly documented.

      Luckyvampire wrote: There's another advantage of the current system - it is harder to vandalize important information as the potential vandal will get confused/bored trying to find it.
      SailorMint wrote: The benefit of being able to pull data from one source to display it on multiple pages outweights the few extra clicks needed to edit it.

      Indeed its advantageous if this would be a database. Alas, this is not and wikimedia does not offer the tools of database operations. Also you seem to miss the point of WHERE the data locates and confuse it to HOW it is used. Having the information on the page itself does not remove the use of templates to display nor makes it any way harder to fetch it for displaying. On the countrarary.

      For the vandalism point, there are the articles itself, the formation templates and then the data templates. None of them are protected and changes in any of the template ones has wiki wide effects. With one search I found 515 vurneabilites from this template data structure alone in this wiki, not including any of the display templates. Thats quite bunch of pages to protect and maintain for few trusted persons. If templates would be used for displaying data instead of storing it, that number would drop to same number as there are displaying templates. There are two ways of making vandalism easy, by making lot of stuff depend on each others (templates on templates on templates) and not protecting them or allowing unrestricted bots. Or you can just slap PROTECTED on everything but then you will genocide the wiki's next generation of editors.

      Emptylord wrote:

      ... Roll back the decision to use individual templates per ability, and just invoke the ability information directly from the article when it's needed by other pages. This was discussed, and was almost solved before the decision to use templates was pushed.

      I have missed that disccussion totally, odd.

      TehAnonymous wrote:

      Teh's Thoughts & What I think we should have
      We know that they are your thoughts, Your name literally locates above your comments and ues, you can only speak for yourself. Thats kinda the default setting in internet.
      Nazareadain wrote: Is there not a way to (re)direct edit access so you can easily get to edit the template?
      Yes, the wiki markup/media allows it. Then you will end up having double number of edit buttons and/or hidden buttons as sections are automagicly already marked to have edit button or stop using sections or do some heavy customization to editing preferences and making other pages a pain to edit. There is no need to try re-invent the wheel here. Fancy tricking with templates lead to this situation, making more customzation and fancy tricks would most likely just dig the hole deeper.

      Prometheos II wrote:

      I agree with this idea, but removing the template would also remove the item and champion previews, wouldn't it ?
      Not at all. As I mentioned, templates are usually used to format the data, not be data themselves. The info templates (mouse hoover ones, short article infos) could just as well pull the data from the articel itself through a info/display template and show just like now. Difference would that every editor could help with the updating and patroling the wiki and only the info/display templates needs to be kept on check/protected/would-be-vurneable.
        Loading editor
    • The goal is to have individual access to the ability data. As to use them for hover tooltips and subpages.


      Wikia doesn't allow us anymore to request the usage of Semantic MediaWiki (SMW), a database, because of server power issues. That's why we have to rely on Data Templates.


      Q & A:

      • Hover tooltips and having access to the data won't work with Transclusion
        • Hover tooltips won't work with having all data on one page.
      • "Just making a remark after the deep templating style change was made, all the extra info in the wiki (the salt that makes this different from other wikis) is dragging two to seven patches behind."
      • "Add an edit button to each Ability infobox."
        • Its already there v • e
        Loading editor
    • BlackSmith wrote:

      <long comment>

      Wow, that's a lot of text that doesn't offer any new ideas, suggestions, or solutions. Thanks!

        Loading editor
    • TehAnonymous wrote:

      BlackSmith wrote:

      <long comment>

      Wow, that's a lot of text that doesn't offer any new ideas, suggestions, or solutions. Thanks!

      You ok there, buddy? Had a long day?

        Loading editor
    • Talking of templates who screwed with the champion templates? Cos now my free rotation page looks like shit with the text justified to the right instead of underneath.

        Loading editor
    • @Tobylic : So there will be a tooltip for champions' abilities?

        Loading editor
    • an anonymous contributor
        Loading editor
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message