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Discussing Trivia Guidelines

DocTanner October 12, 2013 User blog:DocTanner

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Introduction

With the recent release of Jinx, there's been a renewed discussion of what, exactly, constitutes "trivia". There's been an enormous amount of references added to her page and significant disagreement about what should or should not be included. There are some members of the community who believe that anything of interest is worthy of inclusion, regardless of how much of a "stretch" it might be. Others believe that only concrete, verifiable fact should be included. Still others believe that there is some middle ground that allows for limited speculation in the absence of verification.

So far, most of this discussion has been between Asperon Thorn (talk) and myself (talk), with additional input from a few other members of the community. In particular, there is a long comment thread on Jinx's Trivia/Skins page, here. Additionally, there's been some extended discussion on Asperon Thorn's talk page, under the headings "Jinx" and "Treasury". Now it's time to open this discussion up to the community at large. I would encourage everyone to look into the links above for a better understanding of the conversation so far.

Currently, the only written guidelines as to what constitutes trivia are from a forum post from October 2011. That post can be found here. While it provides relatively concrete rules for information on trivia pages, it is mostly unknown to the community and had very little response at the time. The purpose of my post today is to generate a community discussion on the subject so that, together, we can create an official policy for trivia pages going forward.

The Process

According to the official policy, blog pages are not intended to be used for policy discussions. Unfortunately, the wiki forms are rarely seen or visited by the majority of editors and any attempt at a discussion there would likely go unnoticed. Additionally, blog posts provide an easier method of commenting for users unfamiliar with wiki forums.

Fortunately, we've arrived at a compromise: this post will serve as a place to start the discussion and gather interest. As soon as it's gained enough visibility, I will create a forum post for an official discussion, revision, and vote. As soon as the forum post is created, this blog will be edited and a link will be prominently displayed at the top.

For now, I have drafted an initial proposal for new guidelines. Please keep in mind that this is only my proposal and may not reflect the consensus of the community. It should not be treated as policy or used for any purpose other than discussion. I include it purely to provide a starting point for discussion and everything in it is entirely subject to change. As consensus is established, additional versions will be created and included.

EDIT: A mark-two proposal has been drafted and included. Mark-one is still available in a rollout below.

Reminder: These are simply proposed guidelines and should not be used to make editing decisions.

Items included as trivia under a champion's Skins/Trivia page should fit one of the following categories:

  1. Official Statement or Announcement: Information from or statements by Riot employees.
    1. Items in this category should be provided as a quote.
    2. A link to the original statement should be included whenever possible.
    3. Examples:
      • Announcements from the League of Legends website or Facebook page.
      • Forum posts by Riot employees.
      • Answers to Reddit AMAs by Riot employees.
  2. Verifiable Fact: Information that is verifiably accurate and not subject to opinion, speculation, or personal judgment.
    1. Trivia under this category may be stated as fact.
    2. If the fact is not inherently obvious, a reference should be provided.
    3. Examples:
      • The champion's release order. (Ex: "Jinx Jinx is the 116th champion.")
      • Dates and events. (Ex: "Twisted Fate Underworld Twisted Fate was originally released for the 2012 Harrowing event.")
  3. Indisputable Culture Reference: A reference that is obvious and undisputed by the community.
    1. Trivia under this category may be stated as fact using the words “is a reference to”, etc. However, great care must be taken to ensure that the reference is, in fact, undisputed.
    2. A link to the referenced material should be provided.
    3. The reference must be “patently obvious”. In other words, it must be plain and clear to any reasonable editor that the reference is intentional and valid.
    4. The reference must be unique. In the event that an item appears to be a reference to more than one thing, none of them are acceptable. For example: Rammus Rammus' Powerball.png Powerball resembles both Samus Aran and Sonic the Hedgehog, so neither can be included as an indisputable reference.
    5. Example: Dr. Mundo Mr. Mundoverse is a reference to Mr. Universe.
  4. Similarity to Original Material: A reference to material that, while not patently obvious, is reasonably similar.
    1. Items in this category may not be stated as fact and should instead use terms such as “is similar to”.
    2. The reference must be to an original source. For example, while Nasus Nasus is similar to the Smite character Anubis, it is more accurate to say that both are references to the deity Anubis from Egyptian mythology. Only the latter reference may be included.
    3. References should not be made to common features of a genera. For example, while Jinx Jinx’s hair style is similar to that of Aerith from Final Fantasy VII, that hair style is a common feature of animated media in general and should not be included.
    4. The similarity should be mostly unique. Though two or three items may be mutually similar, more than that quickly becomes unreasonable. If more than two references are made in the same way, it is likely a genera style and none should be included.
  5. Plausible Hints and Easter Eggs
    1. Items in this category may not be stated as fact. Instead, it should be made clear that the reference is only possible or suggested.
    2. While the reference does not have to be certain, it should be likely. In other words, the majority of reasonable editors should agree that it is plausible.
    3. The reference must be to official Riot material.
    4. Examples:
      • A character resembling Kog'Maw Battlecast Kog'Maw appears in the background of Viktor Creator Viktor’s splash art. This may suggest a Battlecast skin is planned for Kog’Maw.
      • Both Vi Vi and Jinx Jinx have the same building behind them in their splash art, though the building is destroyed in Jinx’s art. Given Jinx’s lore regarding their battle, it is possible that this building is intended to be the Piltover Treasury.


If an item is added which does not fit, an edit should be made to improve it. Items should only be removed if they cannot be adjusted or rephrased to match the guidelines. Remember, editing is better than removing.


Trivia Guidelines MKII

Note: Changes from MKI are highlighted.

Reminder: These are simply proposed guidelines and should not be used to make editing decisions.

Items included as trivia under a champion's Skins/Trivia page should fit one of the following categories:

  1. Official Statement or Announcement: Information from or statements by Riot employees.
    1. Items in this category should be provided as a quote.
    2. A link to the original statement should be included whenever possible.
    3. Acceptable Examples:
      • Announcements from the League of Legends website or Facebook page.
      • Forum posts by Riot employees.
      • Answers to Reddit AMAs by Riot employees.
  2. Verifiable Fact: Information that is verifiably accurate and not subject to opinion, speculation, or personal judgment.
    1. Trivia under this category may be stated as fact.
    2. If the fact is not inherently obvious, a reference should be provided.
    3. Facts should be kept relevant and interesting. Some items are so mundane or obvious that they should not be included. For example: "Aatrox Aatrox is the first champion to have two vowels at the start of his name" should not be included.
    4. Acceptable Examples:
      • The champion's release order. (Ex: "Jinx Jinx is the 116th champion.")
      • Dates and events. (Ex: "Twisted Fate Underworld Twisted Fate was originally released for the 2012 Harrowing event.")
  3. Indisputable Culture Reference: A reference that is obvious and undisputed by the community.
    1. Trivia under this category may be stated as fact using the words “is a reference to”, etc. However, great care must be taken to ensure that the reference is, in fact, undisputed. When in doubt, use the page's comments section to discuss.
    2. A link to the referenced material should be provided.
    3. The reference must be “patently obvious”. In other words, it must be plain and clear to any reasonable editor that the reference is intentional and valid.
    4. The reference must be unique. In the event that an item appears to be a reference to more than one thing, none of them are acceptable. For example: Rammus Rammus' Powerball.png Powerball resembles both Samus Aran and Sonic the Hedgehog, so neither can be included as an indisputable reference.
    5. Example: Dr. Mundo Mr. Mundoverse is a reference to Mr. Universe.
  4. Similarity to Original Material: A reference to material that, while not patently obvious, is reasonably similar.
    1. Items in this category may not be stated as fact and should instead use terms such as “is similar to”.
    2. The reference must be to an original source. For example, while Nasus Nasus is similar to the Smite character Anubis, it is more accurate to say that both are references to the deity Anubis from Egyptian mythology. Only the latter reference may be included.
    3. References should not be made to common features of a genera. For example, while Jinx Jinx’s hair style is similar to that of Aerith from Final Fantasy VII, that hair style is a common feature of animated media in general and should not be included.
    4. The similarity should be mostly unique. Though two or three items may be mutually similar, more than that quickly becomes unreasonable. If more than two references are made in the same way, it is likely a genera style and none should be included.
  5. Plausible Hints and Easter Eggs
    1. Items in this category must not be stated as fact. Instead, it should be made clear that the reference is only possible or suggested.
    2. Unconfirmed items in this category may only be included in the "Easter Eggs" section of trivia pages.
    3. If an item is officially confirmed, it may be moved to the trivia section. For example, if an easter egg is a hint for a champion skin which gets released, that easter egg may be moved to that champion's trivia section.
    4. The reference must be official League of Legends material. References to external sources must fall into one of the above categories instead.
    5. While the reference does not have to be certain, it should be likely. In other words, the majority of reasonable editors should agree that it is plausible.
    6. Acceptable Examples:
      • A character resembling Kog'Maw Battlecast Kog'Maw appears in the background of Viktor Creator Viktor’s splash art. This may suggest a Battlecast skin is planned for Kog’Maw.
      • Both Vi Vi and Jinx Jinx have the same building behind them in their splash art, though the building is destroyed in Jinx’s art. Given Jinx’s lore regarding their battle, it is possible that this building is intended to be the Piltover Treasury.
  • Reminders:
    • If an item is added which does not fit, an edit should be made to improve it. Items should only be removed if they cannot be adjusted or rephrased to match the guidelines. Editing is better than removing. See Revert Policy.
    • Trivia should be interesting to a wide audience. As such, you should avoid references to obscure or little-known sources. Ask yourself, "is this popular enough that Riot would think most of their players would get the reference?"
    • Cooperate with other editors. Different editors are bound to interpret guidelines differently and have different opinions about a specific trivia item. Remember, you should never engage in an edit war. Discuss the matter using the comments section or talk pages. If in doubt, review the Revert and Good Faith policies.

The Next Step

The purpose of this post is to build a community consensus on trivia guidelines. So please post any comments, concerns, or suggestions that you may have. Specifically, please post any ideas for adjusting, adding, removing, or clarifying guidelines. I will use your suggestions to create a second draft which will be discussed on the forums.

Thank you for your participation.

Community Input

This section will be edited as the conversation continues and will include excerpts from your input.

  • MKI input:
    • "Indisputable" (Category 3) needs to be clarified and refined.
    • Verifiable facts (Category 2) needs to be clarified as not everything that is true is necessarily "trivia worthy".
    • "Trivia is to discuss the more interesting facts, not every little miniscule fact."
    • "Might be", "resembles", etc is hotly contested as to whether or not it should be included at all. Currently, the best compromise to be made is the creation of an extra "easter eggs" section. This would allow for speculative trivia on things that Riot will not confirm, while keeping the normal trivia section more factual. MKII includes the first attempt to introduce this.
  • MKII input:
    • Nothing yet. You, <insert name here>, should leave a comment and discuss!

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